The thorny questions are always the best ones. Cut and dried issues such as abortion or the war make for stale debates. What's so cool about immigration is the split that can be seen through and across party lines. There is no "liberal" or "conservative" viewpoint.
There are a few starting points that (I hope) everyone can start from. There is a problem in this country with the number of illegals here and coming every day. The official system is too slow, and there are jobs here that pay well enough for people to risk death on a poorly-controlled border. Illegals here make use of the emergency rooms and other benefits without paying into those programs. Employers are willing to look the other way when paying much lower wages for work than would be necessary to hire a legal resident or citizen.
I believe there needs to be some sort of solution to this, because as a country, we don't know who is here. The state does have a right to know how many people are living here, (the census is written into the Constitution) for multiple reasons. Representation in the US House is based upon Census data, as are many other government programs. Taxation (a dirty word in April) also should be efficient as possible, and collection should come from all citizens and residents. All of these are reasons to "bring in from the shadows" the illegals who are currently here.
Those who advocate blanket deportations for the estimated 12 million illegals here have not the first idea of the logistical nightmare such a policy would require. The holding camps alone would make the USSRs gulag system seem childs play. Blanket amnesty is not a valid procedure either, as this would de-value the immigrants here who have played by the rules to become resident aliens or even citizens.
The "supply" side of this equasion is the economic allure of America. Jobs, security and the social safety net bring illegals over the border daily. Not a single proposal before the Congress addresses the ongoing crime being committed by American companies who "unknowingly" (wink, wink) hire illegals every day. Criminalize this behavior, and a major hit to the supply side would stem the flow north.
However, there is never just one solution. The border must be closed. By closed, I mean closed tight and patrolled. Not only to stem the flow north, but for humanitarian reasons as well. People are dying every year making this crossing, and effective patrolling would save lives. Those caught would be immediately returned to their country of origin, but they would be alive.
Finally, the legal immigration process should be loosened. The time and red tape needed to become a resident alien, much less a citizen, should not take as long as it currently does. People who are willing to go through this process, making the commitment to becoming American citizens, are the most desirable people in our society. They understand the value of citizenship in our great country, a high proportion of their children defend this country in the military, and they are active in their community. They pay taxes with pride, start businesses and work hard. Security clearances don't take months or years. The system should be built to welcome such people, not make it difficult to join the "great American experiment."
Categories: Politics
20 comments:
I know you were tooking for a debate, but; it all sounds good to me. Now the trick is implimentation.
Not a comment on this particular subject, but since it is political:
I saw a shirt today that said "The Second Amendment... America's Original Homeland Security."
People that own companies that pay their workers less than minimum wage should face the death penalty. **cough cough that means you Sam Walton cough cough** Not the death penalty, but they should be taken to some developing country and put on the street with nothing for at least 2 years.
Minimum wage should be at least $10. I can't even fill up my car making $6.00 an hour. I don't see how someone could live on anything less than $10.
The whole min wage debate is best saved for another time, but I obviously agree with you.
Teenagers really love the idea of a higher min wage.
Actually, there is a great book about the inability to be anything but homeless on less than a minimum wage. I'll try to find it on Amazon. Basically the guy who tried to do it (kind of like Super Size Me! actually) ended up living in his car homeless for a period of time, if I remember correctly.
Found it:
Nickel and Dimed Book
Steve, I would like to make $10 an hour instead of minium wage too, but if minimum wage were raised to $10 an hour, neither of us would be able to find a job. Businesses are not going to hire a lot of workers if they have to pay them all $10 an hour instead of minimum wage (what is minium wage in PA, anyway?). If you raise the minimum wage, some people will lose their jobs, but the rest will be making more money. The debate is over just how inelastic or elastic is the demand for minimum wage workers, because that's what determines whether or not 10 people or 1,000 people lose their jobs when minimum wage is raised.
But we're talking about illegal immigration. Suprisingly, Jay, I pretty much agree with you. What really frustrates me is how politicians can't get off their butts and do anything to solve illegal immigration. It's not like all the illegal immigrants are voting, too!
But I thought we were adding thousands and thousands of jobs in this country over the last few years! Would raising the min. wage suddenly result in a net job loss?
Wouldn't more money in the hands of the American consumer help the economy? That's the idea behind tax cuts, after all.
Just stirring the pot.
Yeah Jay, let's talk minimum wage. Screw immigration.
The only reason my homies down at the McDonald's in Harmarville aren't making $10 rather than $5.75, is that McDonald's want to make at least 10 mill in profit rather than 5 mill. Companies like McDonald's and Wal-Mart that have established themselves at the top of their respective industries need to actually "give back" to the communities. It's one thing to offer products at a cheaper price, it's another to put more money in someone's pocket. That $.22 you save on a bottle of gatorade at Wal-Mart isn't going to go very far, because you have to spend that and more to get the gas in your car to get you to Wal-Mart. That $.22 can't even get you a one way bus fare to Wal-Mart, let alone there and home. (And no, McDonald's doesn't have anything on the menu for $.22 or less)
It's about CEO's and their ego's, competing to see which guy can buy the pimpest car, the classiest airplane, the hottest trophy wife, etc.
Now, as it may seem from my argument, it may in fact not be minimum wage that should be raised. It should just be the wages of the workers who work at these juggernaut corporations. The people who have to support their family of 4 on $5.75 an hour at Wal-Mart while their wife and two kids work at McDonald's for some extra dough after school.
For the most part, I agree with Steve. I don't think it's possible to legislate any other way to raise the wages of workers other than raising the minimum wage, which is a politically sensitive topic.
Here's the question Emily and I really want to know: What happened to Steve? "Giving back to the community"? Steve, you're sounding like a......never mind.
Jay, don't think I don't believe in Capitalism or the Republican foundation. I just understand that $5.75 is close enough to slave labor. And besides, it could mean less people on welfare (*huge fan*).
I still think social security was a good idea that has gone bad and needs to be phased out.
"If you aren't liberal by the time you are 20, you have no heart. If you aren't conservative by the time you are 40, you have no brain."
And the "giving back to the community" thing:
Wal-Mart and McDonald's always run those friggin "giving back" campaigns that are basically just fronts to get your change in the cardboard box with Ronny McD on the front of them. Honestly, if you want to "give back," pay my homie Tyrese down at the Wendy's more than $6 an hour.
Ah, Welfare there would be an enlightening discussion, but not for after midnight... trust me, Welfare is far less than minimum wage.
By the way, the correct name for Welfare is TANF Temporary Assistance for Needy Familiies.
Umm, correct me if I'm wrong here, but that wall Israel built kinda seems to be working. They used to have suicide attacks (it seemed like) every week. Now, maybe the decline isn't entirely due to the wall, but as comical as it may seem, building a wall around something you don't want certain people to get to can actually work.
I'm not saying we should or shouldn't build a wall in the southwest because I don't really know (or think I know) that, I'm just saying we could build one if we wanted to. Ok I'd like to say more on this but the bell just rang. Darn classes.
So we build a wall, and people then tunnel under it. The problem isn't the people, it's the companies hiring them.
Perhaps little audits that were fairly conducted on companies with hefty fines (say 10,000 an illegal worker) would help decrease the problem. The source of the problem is not the people, it is the companies.
I am not sure that the comparison between Israel's wall and some mammoth wall in the Southwest is a fair comparison. I can't say that I really blame Israel for wanting to put up a wall to protect its population. (Yes, I know there were economic reasons for doing it as well, and again, I can't really blame them for wanting to screw Palastine over.) Illegal immigrants are fulfilled a need in our country created by our country. Saying that building a wall will stop the influx of illegal immigrants is akin to saying that shutting down pornographic magazines will end sexual promescuity (another news story of yesterday).
I think that increasing the Min wage sounds good to all. But what we dont remember is that our economy is baised upon the minimum wage. Minimum wage goes up to $12 then that means that every ones wage increases by 100% gas becomes $6 a gallon bread is $5. Minium wage is not the reason for poverity.
I'm dying to know: What is the reason for poverty? (Seriously??)
People who don't believe in Santa Claus. Duh. You infidels.
Jay,
My, you sound conservative! I disagree with most of what you said about illegals in this country. The people coming in are coming out of desperation that we don't understand in this country. They are extremely hard working and are willing to do just about any kind of work to get ahead. They use very few of our services, and no, they don't pay taxes, but if you understand the tax system, they are saving us money by not filing. They have such low paying jobs that none of them would owe taxes, and they ALL would be entitled to the Earned Income Credit, and would actually get a payout from the government if they filed. How do I, middle class tax payer know this? Because I help the working poor complete their taxes so their kids can file a FAFSA to get financial aid for college. The illegals are so afraid of being caught that they are law abiding in the extreme and they don't readily use the social services that are available to them. We feverently hope that they send their children to our schools. They are growing up American, speaking English, and they need an education. This country is founded by successive waves of immigration, including great grandparents in this family who worked illegally in coal mines and never learned English despite being here nearly 70 years. About that wall the conservatives want to build along the southern border.
Just think about that. What do you think the Mexicans think of us for that? My sister got a little taste of what they thought when she was in Mexico in February. Suddenly we aren't so welcome there anymore either. So, soon we won't be welcome ANYWHERE because of our policies. Now, if border security is so important why aren't we building a wall on our border with Canada? That border is much more porus and capable of admitting terrorists. So it isn't terrorists we are wanting to keep out. It is just poor people who aren't white and don't speak English very well. I say, let them come. Give them citizenship. Make them American. Maybe they will vote out those fools in Washington. We native born apprarently don't know how to do it.
Mother, I'm not sure which of Jay's points you disagreed with. I was a little confused. I also don't think this is a conservative/liberal issue. I listen to enough talk radio ranging from Fascist to Communist to know that views on immigration have less to do with polital leaning than other issues.
First, of all, no one, least of all Jay, has mentioned building a wall on the Souther border. Drew mentioned not wanting to do that. Tightening borders is not the same as building a wall through four states. The irony of irony, is that such a wall, if built, would undoubtably be build using an illegal immigrant work force. However, our country has a major problem in monitoring all of its borders which allow immigrants to come into this country in appalling circumstances. Just yesterday, a cargo ship found 22 people from China crated away for over 2 weeks. Luckily, they weren't really injured; however, frequently people die that way. Not to mention, immigrants who end up becoming involved with drug trafficing due to concerns that their suppliers might rat them out to INS. Increased border control protects everyone.
There is no need to worry about the lack of Federal taxes that illegal immigrants make as they do make far below the minimum requirements for even filing taxes. In fact, I don't think Jay even mentioned taxes.
However, there have been numerous pieces in multiple media outlets, including locations such as NPR, on the stress that the NON-INSURED (including Americans) place on our healthcare systems. There have been several pieces in reputable sources over the past few years, again NPR was one of them, on the stress of illegal immigrants on the health care services of places such as San Diego and elsewhere in Southern California. Obviously there are major flaws in our health care system, such as the fact that 45 million American citizens have no health insurance. However, I would be shocked if you would not agree that adding more than 25% to that uninsured number with the existing 12 million illegal immigrants does not further stress our health care system. NB: I'm not saying that the illegal immigrants are the problem. However, there presence does further exascerbate the problem. Even if by some bizairre chance, we developed a system of nationalized health care, illegal immigrants would continue to be on the outside of this system by their lack of status.
Further, having legitimate wages isn't just about contributing to society, but also to protecting yourself. When companies pay a person honest wages, they also contribute to funds such as social security, disability and unemployment that protect workers who have been injured, become unemployed, etc. These are government programs for workers. By not paying a legitimate and taxed wage, companies are further striping these immigrants of other benefits that citizenship has to offer.
Jay stated that he felt the immigration process needs to be streamlined so that it did not take years to obtain a visa and even longer to become a citizen. This part becomes stickier because of labor shortage and the like. Firstly, trying to draw comparsions to generations past won't work. We had plenty of unskilled, manualized labor jobs in this country then, we don't now. Secondly, the economy is far more global. Most of what we use here isn't even built here.
I certainly have no problem with any hardworking individual wanting to come to America to participate in this democracy, but do they have more rights to do so that some person who has been trying to follow the rules and get in honestly. If you know that not everyone can come into this country, how do you decide who ought to? Someone who blindly follows complicated rules, or someone who blantantly disregards the rules? What about our own workers, unionized workers and the like who have been trying to get fairly paid labor positions, but are unable to do so because suddenly their bargaining chips have no weight? Is their need for an honest days work and pay less than illegal immigrants?
And what about shipping jobs overseas? Isn't this the same thing? Giving a job to a hungry worker in China or India or Thailand, isn't really all that different from giving a job to an illegal immigrant. All of those people want to work, and they are willing to work for less than American workers. They deserve to better themselves and are dire circumstances. How can one allow all illegal immigrants to work, but believe that no jobs should be outsourced. That seems controdictary to me.
Globally, America is not viewed well, but this has very little to do with our position on illegal immigrants. Most countries are far more concerned about our position on Iraq.
This isn't an easy issue, and I haven't even decided how I side on all of this. I do however, don't think that Jay's position would be seen as "conservative" anymore than allowing companies to continue funding illegal immigrants be seen as "liberal."
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